Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/19/1997 01:35 PM Senate CRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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SENATE COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
March 19, 1997
1:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Jerry Mackie, Chairman
Senator Gary Wilken, Vice Chairman
Senator Randy Phillips
Senator Lyman Hoffman
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Dave Donley
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 98
"An Act relating to the conveyance of certain isolated tracts of
state land to boroughs and unified municipalities; and providing
for an effective date."
-- HEARD AND HELD
SENATE BILL NO. 139
"An Act relating to state aid to volunteer fire departments; and
providing for an effective date."
-- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 98 - No previous action to record.
SB 139 - No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER
Annette Kreitzer, Legislative Aide to Senator Loren Leman
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented overview on SB 98
Gary Gustafson, Director
Heritage Land Bank
Municipality of Anchorage
632 W. 6th Ave.
Anchorage, AK 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 98
Kevin Ritchie, Executive Director
Alaska Municipal League
217 2nd St.
Juneau, AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 98
Dick Mylius, Chief, Resource Assessment & Development Section
Division of Land
Department of Natural Resources
3601 C St.
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Outlined DNR's concerns with SB 98
Jane Angvik, Director
Division of Land
Department of Natural Resources
3601 C St.
Anchorage, AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke to DNR's concerns with SB 98
Sam Kito, Special Assistant to Commissioner Perkins
Department of Transportation & Public Facilities
3132 Channel Drive
Juneau, AK 99801-7898
POSITION STATEMENT: Outlined department's concerns with SB 98
Senator John Torgerson
State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-182
POSITION STATEMENT: Prime Sponsor of SB 139
Rodney Jensen, Director of Public Safety
City of Nenana
Box 70
Nenana, AK 99760
POSITION STATEMENT: Suggested amending SB 139 to include EMS
services
Craig Lewis, Director
Emergency Medical Services Council, Interior Region
3522 Industrial Ave.
Fairbanks, AK 99709
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 139 & including
EMS
Pam Ellis
City of Delta Junction
P.O. Box 229
Delta Junction, AK 99737
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 139 & including
EMS
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-12, SIDE A
Number 001
SB 98 CONVEY LAND TO MUNICIPALITIES/BOROUGHS
CHAIRMAN MACKIE called the Senate Community & Regional Affairs
Committee meeting to order at 1:35 p.m. He noted the presence of
Senators Hoffman, Phillips, Wilken and Mackie. He then brought SB
98 before the committee as the first order of business.
ANNETTE KREITZER , staff to Senator Loren Leman, who is the prime
sponsor of SB 98, said the legislation was introduced at the
request of the Municipality of Anchorage.
SB 98 would allow the director of the Division of Lands to convey
isolated tracts of lands within boundaries of a borough to the
municipality. The director is given direction in the bill to give
special consideration to a conveyance of a tract that is contiguous
or in proximity to other municipal land. Ms. Kreitzer explained
the purpose of the that is to simplify some of these land
management problems that the Municipality of Anchorage has had;
however, in doing so, and to meet the criteria of best interest of
the state, this conveyance would have to: (1) consolidate land
ownership patterns; (2) result in more cost-effective and efficient
land management; and (3) achieve the land use planning objectives
of the state and the municipality in which the tract is located.
Ms. Kreitzer further explained that these tracts of land, if they
are conveyed under this subsection, would not be considered in
fulfilling the general grant land entitlement of a borough or a
unified municipality under Title 29.
Number 065
CHAIRMAN MACKIE asked if this legislation would apply strictly to
Anchorage, and MS. KREITZER responded that the way the bill is
written now it is for unified municipalities.
Number 090
GARY GUSTAFSON , Director of the Heritage Land Bank for the
Municipality of Anchorage, stated SB 98 will help solve a problem
of what to do with isolated tracts of state land. These are state
parcels that are left over following years of municipal selection,
conveyance, and other land transfers. These isolated tracts are
often adjacent to, or, in many cases, entirely surrounded by
municipal lands and may therefore be managed more efficiently and
cost-effectively by the local government.
Mr. Gustafson said the legislation also avoids the major pitfalls
that have too often affected other land transfer bills because: (1)
it is short and simple; (2) there is no amendment to the existing
statutory land entitlement of boroughs and municipalities; (3) it
applies only to vacant, unappropriated and unreserved state lands;
and (4) it does not require the state to convey, instead it merely
allows the municipalities to make application for land and allows
DNR to transfer it.
Mr. Gustafson said the bill does not provide a definition of
"isolated tract" and that's because an isolated tract could be a
fraction of an acre in an urban setting, or it could be several
hundred acres in a rural area. The overriding consideration is
that the proposed conveyance be cost-effective and efficient so
that local government has access to utilized lands that perhaps the
state of Alaska would not be prepared or find cost-effective to
manage.
Mr. Gustafson pointed out that the bill would not apply until a
borough or municipality has already reached or is about to reach
their statutory entitlement under AS 29.65. The bill then could be
used for jurisdictions that are close to receiving their
entitlement. That would include Anchorage, the Fairbanks North
Star Borough, the Matanuska-Susitna Borough, the Kenai Borough, and
as time goes on, all unified municipalities and boroughs would be
eligible.
Mr. Gustafson voiced the municipality's strong support for SB 98,
and he encouraged its favorable consideration.
Number 142
SENATOR PHILLIPS asked what was motivating the need for this
legislation. MR. GUSTAFSON responded that there are still have a
few isolated tracts of state land in the Anchorage Bowl, but
Girdwood is probably the area where this would most directly apply.
The municipality owns most of the bottom of the Girdwood Valley,
the Forest Service owns the mountain tops, and in between is a
layer of state land. The municipality has plans to develop ski
resort expansion for Alyeska in this area and they will be doing
the majority of that development on municipal land. He said it
only makes sense to obtain the state land in between their land and
the Forest Service land so that they don't have to have three
layers of jurisdictions and authorities to get authorizations to
develop the land.
CHAIRMAN MACKIE commented that the legislation refers to the
director, and in statute "director" means the director of lands in
DNR. He said he was a little uneasy about giving a division
director the ability to convey land to municipalities. He
questioned why the sponsor didn't introduce a bill that just limits
it to those tracts the Municipality of Anchorage is interested in.
MS. KREITZER responded that Senator Leman agreed to introduce this
bill on behalf of the Municipality of Anchorage, as it is written,
with the understanding that these questions would come up. He
believes that through the committee process, if a bill that's going
to move forward and move out of this committee is going to happen,
then those questions are going to have to be dealt with in this
committee. She said Senator Leman has the same concerns, and he is
prepared to deal with those questions.
CHAIRMAN MACKIE said he wouldn't have a problem with a situation
like the Alyeska Ski Resort expansion or another municipality that
was in a similar type of situation, but he is concerned with
conveying broad authority like SB 98 provides. MR. GUSTAFSON
related that the provision giving the director the authority to
make the decision was included in the legislation because AS 29.65
already provides the director with the authority to make decisions
on municipal selections. CHAIRMAN MACKIE said that was a different
story than conveying actual parcels of land out of municipalities.
Number 225
KEVIN RITCHIE , Executive Director, Alaska Municipal League,
directed attention to a letter of support and a resolution that was
passed by the Alaska Municipal League in November in support of SB
98. He expressed the Municipal League's willingness to work with
the committee on the bill.
Mr. Ritchie said a number of municipalities are members of the
Municipal League's lands committee. That committee met recently
and they all thought that SB 98 would be a very reasonable tool to
provide some additional ability for the state to convey land that
was meaningful to municipalities.
Number 250
SENATOR HOFFMAN asked which unified municipalities in the state
would gain from this legislation. MR. RITCHIE replied that the
Municipal League's lands committee has never discussed the language
"boroughs and unified municipalities," but he didn't think there
would be an objection to simply delete "boroughs and unified" which
would then cover all municipalities in the state.
Number 265
SENATOR WILKEN said there is no consideration of the value of the
land that's being transferred from one entity to another, and he
questioned if that is something that should be considered.
DICK MYLIUS , Chief of the Resource Assessment & Development
Section, Division of Land, Department of Natural Resources,
testifying from Anchorage, said the current municipal entitlement
program was set up in 1978. The total amount of land the state has
given municipalities is about 1.3 million acres, and of that, about
600,000 acres have not yet been transferred. He explained that is
partly because some of the large land grants to boroughs came on
line a few years ago with the formation of boroughs like the
Northwest Arctic Borough and such, but the department is in the
process of conveying those lands. There are a few municipalities
that have received all of their land, and, in the case of
Anchorage, there was actually an out-of-court settlement that
resolved their entitlement by giving them a combination of land and
cash because there was not enough land to meet their entitlement.
Anchorage is one of only four municipalities that fall under this
Act which have full entitlement or close to their full entitlement.
The other 12 municipalities that qualify under this Act either as
boroughs or home rule municipalities still are owed land under the
existing program. However, most of the cities, with the exception
of one or two, are only owed, at the most, a few hundred acres.
There are about five boroughs that have large outstanding debts and
then small amounts to a whole lot of municipalities.
Mr. Mylius related that one of DNR's concerns about this bill is
that most municipalities can hardly get isolated tracts of state
land through their existing entitlement. There is also concern
that with the way the language is written, any borough or
municipality that's still owed land under AS 29.65 could also come
in and file for selections, and it is kind of like writing a blank
check in terms of how much land they might end up with. In the
case of Anchorage, there are very few tracts that they can get
because there isn't a whole lot of state land available in that
area.
Number 400
SENATOR WILKEN asked if when Anchorage got their entitlement, as
well as a cash settlement because there was inadequate land
available, did that complete the commitment from the state. MR.
MYLIUS answered that there is a 1986 agreement with Anchorage which
basically outlines what needs to be done to complete the
commitment. There are some parcels of land that still have not
been conveyed to the municipality, some of which they only get if
the state doesn't need them. So it is still kind of an ongoing
commitment to the municipality to convey them certain specific
tracts of lands, but to the large part, their commitments to
Anchorage have been met.
SENATOR WILKEN said his concern is that the land belonging to the
state belongs to all the people of the state, and if it does have
value to the people of the state, that is not recognized in this
bill. MR. GUSTAFSON said Senator Wilken raises an excellent issue
that the state always has to weigh when it conveys property. He
said the bill does not require the state to convey anything, but in
many cases, there will be isolated tracts of state land that are
remote, difficult to manage, and not very cost effective for the
state to manage, and in those cases, it might be better to transfer
them to the municipality so that they can be used and perhaps go
into a local tax base.
Number 415
JANE ANGVIK , Director, Division of Land, Department of Natural
Resources, testifying from Anchorage, stated the department is
concerned about how this legislation will affect the amount of work
that is already being done with municipal entitlements within the
Department of Natural Resources, as well as efforts on the part of
the Legislature to try to encourage the disposal of lands that
belong to the state. She pointed out that the House Finance
Committee has slated the division for a $218,000 reduction in their
operating budget which will affect their capacity to fulfill their
existing requirements under the municipal entitlement program, so
there is some concern about taking on additional responsibilities
and responding to municipalities who are requesting them to make a
best interest finding with respect to allocations of land.
Ms. Angvik said the division is interested in working with the
Legislature on trying to find ways to make lands available to
Alaskans. There has been discussion on whether or not there should
be some triggering mechanism for municipalities to be required to
dispose of some of the lands that they have received from the state
to make them available to the public. So as a policy question,
they are interested in exploring the possibility of encouraging
additional disposal of lands by municipal governments.
Ms. Angvik pointed out that the legislation does not contain a
definition of "isolated tract," and since it is not defined, it is
not clear if there is any size consideration in the proposal to
dispose of a piece of land.
In conclusion, Ms. Angvik said the department looks forward to
working with the committee on ways to improve the bill.
Number 492
SENATOR WILKEN directed attention to page 1, line 7, and suggested
deleting the words "may not be" and replacing with the words "shall
be" so that if the land being selected is not going to be counted
as part of a municipality's entitlement, then he would expect that
they would pay the people of the state for the value of that land.
When a municipal entitlement has been fulfilled, then it would
strictly be a fair market value as all other programs in the state.
Number 510
SAM KITO , Special Assistant to Commissioner Perkins, Department of
Transportation & Public Facilities, said the department owns tracts
of lands, specifically around airports, and it can specifically be
located within a municipality or borough. DOT's concern is that
in a borough or municipality with a finite land base that these
isolated state tracts will increase in value over time and could
potentially prove valuable for land exchanges and transportation
improvements as well. The department believes these tracts have
value and should not be given away to a municipality. If the state
determines that there is no long term need for a piece of property,
then that property can be purchased at fair market value from the
state, or considered as part of a municipal entitlement.
There being no further testimony, CHAIRMAN MACKIE stated SB 98
would be held, and he invited all the interested parties to work
with his staff and the sponsor's staff to address the concerns that
had been raised during the meeting.
Number 565
SB 139 AID TO VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPARTMENTS
CHAIRMAN MACKIE brought SB 139 before the committee as the final
order of business.
RODNEY JENSEN , Director of Public Safety, City of Nenana, said the
Nenana Volunteer Fire Department serves a population of Alaska
residents who would otherwise not be served. What little funds the
Nenana Fire Department receives from the state only supplement
costs for wear and tear on equipment. He said the state receives
a great deal from what little amount the departments do receive
for their services.
Mr. Jensen requested that the sponsor and the committee consider
adding enough funding for volunteer emergency medical services for
those entities which have separate fire and EMS services to assist
in defraying some of the costs incurred in providing these
services. He pointed out that almost 50 percent of their volunteer
organization live outside the city limits in those areas which they
service.
TAPE 97-12, SIDE B
Number 560
SENATOR TORGERSON , prime sponsor of SB 139, said that while this
legislation needs a lot of work, his intent is to take away the
inequity that currently exists by limiting state funding for
volunteer fire departments to those which are not in an organized
municipality. He said he started working on this issue many years
ago and ran into the problem of how to identify what a volunteer
fire department is. He noted that the City & Borough of Juneau has
volunteer departments, but it was never his intention that the pie
would be divided to include an area as big or as capable of taxing
themselves as a community such as Juneau.
Senator Torgerson said there are volunteer fire departments in the
state that are having bake sales, pancake feeds, etc., to buy gas
for their vehicles to make things happen for their operations,
while there are other volunteer departments in the unorganized
areas that are receiving $10 a person, which has been prorated down
to $2.80 a person just for calling themselves a volunteer fire
department. He said he thinks that needs to be changed. He
stressed that it is not his intent to make a huge fiscal note out
of this but just to take care of the smaller operations that need
help.
Senator Torgerson said he would like to see the emergency medical
services included in this legislation if it can be accomplished
with a realistic fiscal note. He said in some instances, it should
almost be more EMS than it is volunteer fire departments, but in
a lot of cases the same people are performing both the fire
services and the EMS services.
Number 525
CHAIRMAN MACKIE noted that a number of recent newspaper articles
have talked about a number of volunteer EMS agencies in the state
that have disbanded because of a lack of funds. He said as a
former emergency medical technician, he's well aware of the
importance of these kinds of programs, and he welcomes the
opportunity to work with the sponsor to try to take care of EMS and
volunteer fire departments, whether they are in unorganized or
organized areas.
SENATOR TORGERSON pointed out that the total disbursement for this
program is less than $36,000 that goes out to rural Alaska, and he
thinks it this issue needs to be revisited and looked at.
SENATOR PHILLIPS asked how many volunteer fire departments are in
this category. SENATOR TORGERSON clarified there are 27
departments in this program right now.
Number 437
CRAIG LEWIS , Director of the Emergency Medical Services Council,
Interior Region, as well as the president of the Alaska EMS
Association, testified in support of amending SB 139 by adding
volunteer EMS ambulance services to those considered for the $10
allocation. He said the EMS community has equivalent controls that
could easily blend with those identified in the bill for volunteer
fire departments. There are regulations in the Administrative Code
that establish a very rigorous criteria for credentialling
ambulance services, which he feels would support anyone's
assessment for quality control and quality assurance in the work
that they do.
Mr. Lewis related that at one time in Alaska there were over 160
certified ambulance services at the basic life support level or
advanced, whereas today this number has declined to 115. He said
this is a serious decline, and the major reason for it is lack of
funding. Those that provide support along the highway network and
the places that are more difficult to respond to in rural Alaska
need the Legislature's support to maintain that type of service.
Number 400
SENATOR PHILLIPS asked if there is a charge to out-of-state
residents for EMS services along the highways. MR. LEWIS answered
that most of the ambulance services do have a ambulance fee. In
many cases, they cannot access the insurance industry because of
the requirements of Medicaid, Medicare and a variety of private
carriers to be officially credentialed and sanctioned. It is
difficult because they have to keep a lot of records, communicate
regularly, and the amount of reimbursement is insufficient to cover
the costs.
Number 365
PAM ELLIS , representing the City of Delta Junction, voiced support
for SB 139, as well as adding a provision for emergency medical
services. She pointed out Delta Junction doesn't have a tax base,
so all of their revenues come from the state and what they can
collect in fees for EMS services.
Number 330
There being no further testimony, CHAIRMAN MACKIE stated SB 139
would be held in committee for further work. He then adjourned the
meeting at 2:45 p.m.
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